The way people who live there pronounce it is hur'i'kun (the "i" is often pronounced like a short "u" or the upside down "e"). Subscribe to learn and pronounce a new word each day! Word meaning, dictionary definition, explanation, information.Utah is a state in the western United States. The Hurricane fault is a "normal" fault, a type of fault that forms during extension of the earth's crust, where one side of the fault moves down . Other examples of ancestral influence on Utahns' language include the pronunciation of the southern Utah town Hurricane as "Hur-ah-kun" (which reflects the Utah pioneers' British origins) and the dying pronunciation of Spanish Fork as Spanish "Fark" (a trace of Irish that is also common in the Northeastern U.S.). overrideButtonText=, PROVO, UT 84602, USA | 801-422-4636 | 2023 ALL RIGHTS RESERVED, BYU professor explores link between the bicycles forerunner and the Tour de France. The fifth and final chapter corrals a variety of Other Utah Stuff. Did you know, for instance, that the Frisbee (originally the Pluto Platter) was invented by Walter Frederick Morrison of Roosevelt, Utah, or that the traffic light was invented by Salt Lake police detective Lester Wire, or that the machine that resurfaces ice rinks was invented in California by Eureka, Utah, native Frank Zamboni? The all-time favorites are the only way, I k ow how to order. The following errors occurred with your submission. Eddington shows that many of these supposedly unique Utah pronunciations are actually predictable vowel shifts that turn up in other parts of the United States. (English pronunciations of Utah from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus and from the Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary, both sources Cambridge University Press), a change in the way a country is governed, usually to a different political system and often using violence or war, From one day to the next (Phrases with day, Part 1), Cambridge University Press & Assessment 2023. Elsa has strengthened and now has maximum sustained winds of 70.. overrideBackgroundColorOrImage= But in his research, for which he surveyed 1,700 Utahns about their vocabulary and speech patterns, Eddington found that Utah is less unusual than many think. Hurricane Utah Profile and Resource Guide. Hurricane, Utah Facts and How to say Utah. It's pronounced more "wot a Burger" than waterburger, but it can sound that way. Oh Whataburger, looks like I won't be really going anymore (not that I go out. I drove by yesterday and thought about stopping for a shake. Other Utah names reflect the Native American roots like Tooele which derives from the Goshute word for black bear.. Are you a foodie? At least Hurricane makes sense, many settlers were from Liverpool. Even the true origin of the name Utah is a bit unique. Most people looking at the name "Hurricane" would assume that it is pronounced like the usual "hurricane" when referring to cyclonic storms. Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus. About Press Copyright Contact us Creators Advertise Developers Terms Privacy Policy & Safety How YouTube works Test new features NFL Sunday Ticket Press Copyright . How to Pronounce Hurricane? (CORRECTLY) Meaning & Pronunciation The population of Hurricane is approximately 13,344 (2000), 13748 (2010). (English pronunciations of hurricane from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary & Thesaurus and from the Cambridge Academic Content Dictionary, both sources Cambridge University Press), a change in the way a country is governed, usually to a different political system and often using violence or war, From one day to the next (Phrases with day, Part 1), Cambridge University Press & Assessment 2023. Chapter4 delves into the origins and pronunciation of Utah place names, including Duchesne, Hooper, Hurricane, Levan, Mantua, Timpanogos, and Tooele. How to Pronounce Hurricane, Utah (Real Life Examples!) Hurricane Elsa is forecast to track just off off the west coast of Florida during the day on Tuesday, heading for a potential landfall somewhere between Sarasota and the Panhandle, according.. Its fascinating to learn where a lot of these things really come from.. This is the British English pronunciation of hurricane. In the world of words and the diversity of accents and local dialects, some words can be extremely hard to pronounce.Juliens instructional and educational videos make pronunciation easier as I detail the correct pronunciation as native French speaker but also fluent speaker of French, English, Spanish and Italian.-If you found this video helpful please like the video to support my work.-If you would like help with any future pronunciations please be sure to subscribe!-Thanks for Watching How To Pronounce with Julien and happy pronouncing.#EnglishWithJulien How to Pronounce Hurricane, Utah (Real Life Examples!) Usage explanations of natural written and spoken English, British and American pronunciations with audio. I've always heard it pronounced as "too" + "ill" + "uh": tooilluh. Chip Oscarson, an associate dean in Undergraduate Education at Brigham Young University, expressed the importance of obtaining a transformative education, including spiritual and secure knowledge. For Those Reading TSE, Here Is the Proper Pronunciation of "Hurricane RE: Just saw that Dairy Keen in Heber has that on the menu. The no longer recognized pronunciation of Spanish Fork as Spanish "Fark" was derived from pioneers with Irish backgrounds who came to Utah from the Northeastern U.S. Take the aforementioned mountain, for example. Source, learn more about this word on: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UtahLearn how to say words in English, French, Spanish, German, Italian, and many other languages with Julien Miquel and his pronunciation tutorials! hurricane (utah) sound - hurricane (utah) pronunciation - how to hurricane - pronunciation of hurricane by Macmillan Dictionary How would you say. Just saw that Dairy Keen in Heber has that on the menu. Infobox Settlement official_name = Hurricane, Utah settlement_type = City nickname = motto = imagesize = image_caption = Hurricane, Utah in 1929 image_ mapsize = 250px map_caption = Location of Hurricane, Utah mapsize1 = map_caption1 = subdivision_type = Country subdivision_name = United States subdivision_type1 = State Your question is answered. Another interesting quirk that could help answer this question is the term potato bug, brought over by early pioneers. 10 unusual Utah cities or town pronunciations - ABC4 Utah Cougar Queries are a series profiling BYU employees by asking them questions about their work, interests and life. The real difference lies in what happens after the glottal stop. Chapter 4 delves into the origins and pronunciation of Utah place names, including Duchesne, Hooper, Hurricane, Levan, Mantua, Timpanogos, and Tooele. Most people looking at the name "Hurricane" would assume that it is pronounced like the usual "hurricane" when referring to cyclonic storms. 77 F. RealFeel 75. In Scandinavian languages, they use interjections like for beautiful! instead of how beautiful!, Other examples of ancestral influence on Utahns language include the pronunciation of the southern Utah town Hurricane as Hur-ah-kun (which reflects the Utah pioneers British origins) and the dying pronunciation of Spanish Fork as Spanish Fark (a trace of Irish that is also common in the Northeastern U.S.). Other ancestral influences on Utahns speech practices include quirky pronunciations of the names of some cities and towns. We and our partners use cookies to Store and/or access information on a device. Continue with Recommended Cookies, Please It's pronounced more "wot a Burger" than waterburger, but it can sound that way.. LiveCoug Bio page LiveCoug Joined Aug 26, 2001 Last login May 22, 2023 Total posts 110,141 (9,198 FO) Messages Author Time Oh Whataburger, looks like I won't be really going anymore (not that I go out Listen how to. This isn't a joke about the pronunciation, I'm legitimately curious why a landlocked state has a town named after a tropical The Hurricane valley makes up the easternmost part of the St. George Metropolitan area and is becoming a tourist gateway town to Zion National Park. Utahisms: Unique Expressions, Inventions, Place Names, and More, by David Ellingson Eddington (Charleston, S.C.: The History Press, 2022). Curious-sounding Utah place names also reflect the regions Native American roots. Utah has one of the largest numbers of people with Danish ancestry. Chapter3 examines Utah pronunciation, including fish in the crick, American Fark, and Utahs moununs. Unfortunately, this browser does not support voice recording. Air Quality Fair. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. Hurricane, for example, is pronounced as "Hur-ah-kun" which traces back to Utah pioneers' British origins. You can contribute this audio pronunciation of hurricane to HowToPronounce dictionary. Its wot a Burger. Listen to the audio pronunciation in English. The best evidence we have is that the Spaniards asked the Pueblos what they called the Native Americans from a particular area and the Pueblos just said something that sounded to the Spaniards like, Utah, meaning the people over there, Eddington explained. noun /hrkn/ /hrken/ a violent storm with very strong winds, especially in the western Atlantic Ocean A powerful hurricane hit the Florida coast. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. Meat is, RE: I k ow how to order. hurricane victims hurricane-force winds The proceeds will go to hurricane relief. We call it a nasal release because the air flows out of your nose after the glottal-stopped t. What people are cluing into when they think Utahns say mountain funny is that Utahns use an oral release, where the air flows through their mouths after the glottal stop, for mounun., In the book, Eddington does detail a few things that are unique to Utahs culture. Love those things. How do you pronounce Tooele? A guide to some of the oddly - ABC4 Utah But where do these practices come from? The hurricane season does not end until November. The fifth and final chapter corrals a variety of "Other Utah Stuff." Did you know, for instance, that the Frisbee (originally the Pluto Platter) was invented by Walter Frederick Morrison of . I will say that the older residents get really upset when you pronounce the name of the town the way the rest of the country does and will often get quite nasty in their corrections. Hear more FAMOUS US PLACE NAMES pronounced: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyncGi5eWz0\u0026list=PLd_ydU7Boqa2TWjHeVDMd_w6b4bDlwA2-Listen how to say Utah correctly (US State, English vocabulary) with Julien, \"how do you pronounce\" free pronunciation audio/video tutorials.What does Utah mean? ({{youtube.currentSearch+1}} / {{youtube.searchResult.length}}), {{view.translationsData[trans_lang][0].vote_count}}, A storm that has lashed the Caribbean and the Florida Keys with pounding rain and gusty winds and complicated the search for survivors in a deadly condominium collapse has strengthened. Eddingtons new book tells the story behind the many things that make Utah language special and shows that while a lot of them are still strange, most of them are not so odd after all. HURRICANE | Pronunciation in English - Cambridge Dictionary How To Properly Pronounce Utah Towns And Places (Tooele, Oquirrh This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022). English pronunciation of hurricane hurricane How to pronounce hurricane UK /hr..kn/ /hr..ken/ US /h..ken/ /h..kn/ More about phonetic symbols Sound-by-sound pronunciation UK /hr..kn/ hurricane /h/ as in hand // as in cup /r/ as in run // as in ship /k/ as in cat // as in above /n/ as in name US /h..ken/ hurricane Definition and synonyms of hurricane from the online English dictionary from Macmillan Education. As the world gears up for the 110th annual Tour de France this July, a BYU professor shares the rich history of the bicycle in France. How To Pronounce Hurricane - YouTube How to say hurricane. overrideCardHideByline=true No trilling of the "r"s, no British inflections. The groundbreaking . All other content is 1999-2023 SM Consulting, LLC. The amount of land area in Hurricane is 80.6 sq. All Rights Reserved, {{app['fromLang']['value']}} -> {{app['toLang']['value']}}, Pronunciation of hurricane with 8 audio pronunciations. You can try again. BYU linguistics professor David Eddingtons recently published book, Utahisms: Unique Expressions, Inventions, Place Names, & More, looks at language in the Beehive State. overrideTextColor= or post as a guest. And thats where Palmyra and Kirtland are located, so the term was probably brought here by the early pioneers., Utah expressions like for cool or for cute (which are now becoming rarer) can also be heard in Minnesota and Iowa. Miscellany Statistics & Facts The Utah state capital is Salt Lake City. This page is not available in other languages. This slim volume by Brigham Young University linguistics professor David Eddington should interest anyone who grew up in Utah, lived in Utah, or is curious about the linguistic, geographic, and historical curiosities of the Beehive State. Yet Whataburger is worse impossibly yet true. overrideCardHideDescription=false But I go there for the soft sherbet cones. Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.211.33.34 (talk) 16:03, 15 June 2008 (UTC)Reply[reply], I'm removing File:Hurricaneutah.jpg 'Hurricane in the Summer' because it creates an awkward layout and is not necessary for the article. Wordfinder Wordfinder Congrats! Mediocre food at Dairy Keen. And so is Herriman pronounced like "hurry" and "man"Hurryman? Where to find the best burgers in Utah Weber: Pronounced we-bur not web-er. They always come back. For instance, only Utahns use the term scones to describe fry bread and say sluff school instead of skip school.. Learn more. miles. Check out these Famous cuisines around the World, h-fjoedtrdlsfjagfed-jufdghesojigfgedhsdlkefak. The no longer recognized pronunciation of Spanish Fork as Spanish Fark was derived from pioneers with Irish backgrounds who came to Utah from the Northeastern U.S. Many believe Utahns are singular for pronouncing the t in words like mountain by making a closure in the throat, a sound linguists call a glottal stop. However, people in states as far-flung as Indiana, Vermont and New Mexico have a similar pronunciation. Said fast, can sound like waterburger, Oh like those fish that grow in water. How to pronounce hurricane in English | HowToPronounce.com Utah has one of the largest numbers of people with Danish ancestry. How to say Utah. Keep up. Claiming that the way the town's name is pronounced by the older residents is "British" is very, very misleading. Listen to the audio pronunciation in the Cambridge English Dictionary. For instance, while its unusual spelling remains a mystery, Tooele derives from the Goshute word for black bear., And Utah itself? However, if you want to really stand out when visiting the town, say it like that. Interestingly, the pronunciation of Hurricane Utah - CougarBoard overrideTextAlignment=. A guide to some of the oddly-named towns and cities in Utah. Chapter 1 tackles Utah Critters, from the minuscule (potato bugs and water skeeters) to the massive (Pando). Why do people in Hurricane Utah pronounce it the way they do? - CougarBoard 'Not a small town any longer': Hurricane reaches new heights as Wind ESE 4 mph. hurricane noun - Definition, pictures, pronunciation and usage notes This site is not affiliated with Is there a Utah accent? BYU linguist's book reveals pioneer roots The book offers numerous surprises and debunks several common misconceptions about the origins of Utah names, places, inventions, and novelties. Register And thats where Palmyra (New York) and Kirtland (Ohio) are located so the term was probably brought here by the early pioneers, Eddington said, pointing to the early Latter-day Saint settlements. BYU linguistics professor David Eddington sorts fact from fiction regarding these Utah terms in his recently published Utahisms: Unique Expressions, Inventions, Place Names & More. overrideCardHideByline=true Others confidence about the states uniqueness first piqued the linguists interest in the topic. Use our interactive phonemic chart to hear each symbol spoken, followed by an example of the sound in a word. Hurricane, Utah - Wikipedia Utahisms - BYU Studies Hurricane: Her' uh cun with the middle syllable barely voiced All stressed on the first syllable except Tooele 09-04-2010, 07:52 PM . HURRICANE As the shovels first struck dirt for the new Hurricane Campus of St. George Regional Hospital, the feeling of major change for a small town was in the air. Wanship???? Well there you go. Seems like your pronunciation of hurricane is not correct. I live here and would say that the old pronunciation of the town sounds more like a Southern U.S. dialect (I've also lived in Houston, so I know whereof I speak). Hurricane, Utah - Academic Dictionaries and Encyclopedias Today, we meet Chip Oscarson, an associate dean in undergraduate education. I have just modified one external link on Hurricane, Utah. Meanings for Hurricane Utah Sluffing school, saying you fill sick, the particular pronunciation of t in mountain: many will recognize these peculiarities of Utah speech, but are any of them truly exclusive to Utah? {{app.userTrophy[app.userTrophyNo].hints}}, {{view.translationsData[trans_lang][0].word}}, {{view.translationsData[trans_lang][0].username}}, Storm lashing Florida strengthens into hurricane, MAP: Heres the latest forecast track of Hurricane Elsa, Tropical storm Elsa to reach hurricane strength again before making landfall in Florida, Tropical Storm Elsa gaining strength, could become hurricane, Elsa strengthens into hurricane as it approaches Florida's west coast. Its population was 20,036 as of the 2020 United States Census estimates. Manage Settings The consent submitted will only be used for data processing originating from this website. City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Utah: How To Properly Pronounce Utah Towns And Places (Tooele, Oquirrh: trailer, Dutch) User Name: Remember Me: Password . overrideCardHideSection=false All posts are copyrighted by their author. Usage explanations of natural written and spoken English, British and American pronunciations with audio. It also touches a corner of New Mexico in the southeast. For Those Reading TSE, Here Is the Proper Pronunciation of "Hurricane" Utah (The More you Know). (ABC4) - There's almost no better way to tell if someone is from Utah or not than by asking them to pronounce "Tooele" out loud. How to pronounce HURRICANE in English - Cambridge Dictionary My most favorite mispronunciation I've heard of it by someone from the northeast was "toolie.". Pronunciation of Hurricane Utah with 5 audio pronunciations 3 ratings 1 rating -1 rating -4 rating -5 rating Record the pronunciation of this word in your own voice and play it to listen to how you have pronounced it. How to say hurricane in English? Pronunciation of hurricane with 8 audio pronunciations, 12 synonyms, 4 meanings, 14 translations, 60 sentences and more for hurricane. To view the purposes they believe they have legitimate interest for, or to object to this data processing use the vendor list link below. overrideTextAlignment= This fast-growing city is located in Washington County in Southern Utah. Pronunciation of hurricane with 8 audio pronunciations, 12 synonyms, 4 meanings, 14 translations, 60 sentences and more for hurricane. overridebuttonBgColor= How to pronounce hurricane | HowToPronounce.com 801-422-4511. He believes this makes Utah interesting in a different way, since the commonalities between Utahs supposed oddities and those of other places offer glimpses into the states history. "Hurricane, which is pronounced "Her-ah-kun" by local residents (mimicking the accent of early Liverpudlian settlers), is in eastern Washington County." Wikipedia Hurricane, Utah Huge numbers of Scandinavian immigrants, Eddington said. Oquirrh: Take "Okra" as in fried okra, chop the "a" off the end and soften the "r"Okr, or Okur, Weber: Add another "e"Weeber as in "Weeber Canyon". The way people who live there pronounce it is hur'i'kun (the "i" is often pronounced like a short "u" or the upside down "e"). Because that's the proper pronunciation of the city. Congrats! overrideBackgroundColorOrImage= But its not a Ute word at all. The Hurricane fault is the big earthquake fault in southwestern Utah. overrideCardHideDescription=false Utahns pronounce it hurr-a-kin. Hurricane: No, Hurricane is not pronounced like the natural disaster, that would make things too simple. Jesse Smith 497 subscribers Subscribe 3 Share Save 471 views 9 years ago This video shows you how to say or pronounce Hurricane, Utah. What these states have in common, Eddington notes, is huge numbers of Scandinavian immigrants. Copyright 2023 Deseret News Publishing Company. The word in the example sentence does not match the entry word. If you would like to change your settings or withdraw consent at any time, the link to do so is in our privacy policy accessible from our home page.. Can you pronounce this word better or pronounce in different accent or variation ? 62 Share 12K views 2 years ago Pronounce English Words Correctly | Vocabulary Pronunciation Learn more English word pronunciations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyncG. Add ${headword} to one of your lists below, or create a new one. You have earned {{app.voicePoint}} points. With some help and necessary corrections from the locals of course, hopefully there will be no heated arguments over which is the correct one if two or more present themselves. Provo, UT 84602, USA | 2022 Brigham Young University, Last at the Cross: Teachings about Christs Crucifixion in the WomansExponent, the Relief Society Magazine, and the Young Womans Journal, Rebaptism in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, How the Book of Mormon Reads AncientReligiousTexts, None That Doeth Good: Early Evidence of the First Vision in JSTPsalm14, An Experiential Pathway to Conversion: Learning in the Yoke of Christ, Constancy amid Change: Latter-day Saint Discourse on Gender and Sexuality, From Cotton McGinteys Rain Sermon to Boy Scout Troop 167 at AgassizMeadows, HighUintas, Terrible Revolution: Latter-day Saints and the American Apocalypse, Joseph Smith for President: The Prophet, the Assassins, and the Fight for American Religious Freedom, Understanding Joseph Smiths Translation of the Bible, Book of Mormon Studies: An Introduction and Guide, Utahisms: Unique Expressions, Inventions, Place Names, and More. What do Utah, Minnesota and Iowa have in common? However, if you want to really stand out when visiting the town, say it like that. 0 && stateHdr.searchDesk ? Ill have to give it a try. Click on the arrows to change the translation direction. Ill have to. Chapter2 explores Utah vocabulary and expressions, from Latter-day Saint terms such as Mutual and Primary to funeral potatoes, flipper crotches (or crutches), and for cute (which comes from Norwegian). Please take a moment to review my edit. Utah owes many of its most quirky expressions to pioneers, says - News BYU University Communications a severe tropical cyclone with heavy rainfall, Hurricane Humberto strengthens to Category 3 while approaching Bermuda, Hurricane Lorenzo hits Azores, heads towards Ireland, Hurricane Dorian strengthens to Category 5, makes landfall in the Bahamas, Remnants of Hurricane Felicia affect Hawaii, Tropical Storm Danielle forms in Atlantic Ocean, Word of the day - in your inbox every day, 2023 HowToPronounce. Go ahead and try it if you're sitting next to a recent out-of-state transplant, it's a hoot. In Scandinavian languages, they use interjections like for beautiful instead of how beautiful, Eddington said. Why do people in Hurricane Utah pronounce it the way they do? How to pronounce Utah. Word meaning, dictionary definition, explanation, information.hurricane/hrk()n,hrken/Learn to pronouncenouna storm with a violent wind, in particular a tropical cyclone in the Caribbean.Source, learn more about this word on: https://languages.oup.com/google-dictionary-enLearn how to say words in English, French, Spanish, German, Italian, and many other languages with Julien Miquel and his pronunciation tutorials! There are two other places youll find them called potato bugs, off the southern shores of Lake Ontario and Lake Erie. 0 && stateHdr.searchDesk ? Tooele: Pronounced "Tow" as in towing a trailer, and "Ella" as in Ella Fitzgerald..Towella. Eddington, like many, had heard that the states name is a Ute Indian word meaning top of the mountains, but his research found thats not the case. A BYU professor says it may go back to the states pioneer roots. Mostly clear More Details. Learn more English word pronunciations: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dyncGi5eWz0\u0026list=PLd_ydU7Boqa2TWjHeVDMd_w6b4bDlwA2- Listen how to say Hurricane correctly (English vocabulary) with Julien, \"how do you pronounce\" free pronunciation audio/video tutorials.What does Hurricane mean? Current Weather. 'pa pdd chac-sb tc-bd bw hbr-20 hbss lpt-25' : 'hdn'">, Test your vocabulary with our fun image quizzes, Clear explanations of natural written and spoken English. The word in the example sentence does not match the entry word. ASB C-347 Ive heard that its a Ute word meaning top of the mountains and all sorts of things, Eddington said. We and our partners use data for Personalised ads and content, ad and content measurement, audience insights and product development. Not surprisingly, many of the expressions and pronunciations have a connection to pioneer immigrants who uprooted from Europe and the eastern U.S. and settled in Utah. Standard American English pronunciation for mountain is mounn, Eddington explained. Listen how to say Utah correctly (US State, English vocabulary) with Julien, "how. overrideCardHideSection=false 5:41 AM. Utah pronunciation. Hurricane Fault | Utah Geological Association Publication 29 8.2K views 2 years ago #EnglishWithJulien Hear more FAMOUS US PLACE NAMES pronounced: Dalgona Pronuncia. Listen to the audio pronunciation in English. Hurricane, Utah. It will come back. 40 votes, 18 comments. The approximate number of families is 3,375 (2000), 4609 (2010). http://articles.cnn.com/2007-09-06/us/utah.crash_1_pickup-truck-barricade-arizona-driver?_s=PM%3AUS, http://www.census.gov/popest/data/cities/totals/2015/SUB-EST2015.html, http://www.webcitation.org/6YSasqtfX?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.census.gov%2Fprod%2Fwww%2Fdecennial.html, http://www.census.gov/prod/www/decennial.html, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Hurricane,_Utah&oldid=1118253813, If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with, If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with, This page was last edited on 25 October 2022, at 23:40. Others thoughts? People will say, Oh yeah, in Utah people do this, that or the other thing, but its actually really hard to find something that is distinctly Utah, Eddington said. The best evidence we have is that the Spaniards asked the Pueblos what they called the Native Americans from a particular area, and the Pueblos just said something that sounded to the Spaniards like, Utah, meaning the people over there. Its fascinating to learn where a lot of these things really come from..
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